Author: eschudel

A long-time Human Resources (HR) professional, Allison has been teaching in the Management & Human Resources Leadership (MHRL) program at Camosun for over eight years. “I started teaching at MacEwan University in their HR program when I got a little bored with my day job. But when we moved to Victoria, after talking to a Camosun instructor at a Christmas party, I sent the only cold email I’ve ever sent in my life to the MHRL department chair who asked me to send in my resume. then that summer, the chair called to see if I was still interested in teaching, and they loaded me up with two courses that fall. I taught as a term instructor for three semesters before becoming continuing, and eight years later, here we are.” And so, Allison moved from a full-time HR professional teaching part-time, to a full-time instructor continuing as an HR professional on the side.

Allison told me she loves teaching HR Management Foundations. “I had a section of Sport Management students last semester and they’re a hoot. I also teach Training and Development, Current Trends in HR Management, and Strategic Compensation.” And I wondered what she enjoyed most about teaching. “Oh, you should have been in class with me on Tuesday night, with my Current Trends in HR Management class. In this course, we don’t use a textbook – we build the curriculum together through research, guest speakers, etc. and the course culminates teams delivering a symposium on what they are interested in. The work of the three teams this semester was exceptional and in the room that night there was joy, there was magic, and there was learning. And the students do it all. I just hold the space for them, supporting them, answering their questions, and giving them ideas if they get stuck.”

I asked Allison more about how she mentors students in her courses. “I took my 400-level class to an event called DisruptHR where a number of speakers have 5 minutes each to talk about something they think is highly disruptive in human resources. We went as a class, which was a wonderful bonding experience, then debriefed during the next class. But the side benefit for me was running into 40 or 50 people I had crossed paths with at various stages of their learning. To see them now at this exciting HR event, making connections and succeeding in their HR careers, is about as good as it gets as a teacher. But I was also introducing my current students to these grads, who could ask them question about where they were working, and what they were doing. So, it was a both a good networking opportunity for my students and a glimpse into their futures.”

Allison also has past students come into the classroom to talk to her current students. “We’ve had graduates come to the Open House at the beginning of November, and three past students participated on a panel for my 400-level class. One works for an HR consulting firm helping various organizations, one started as s co-op students in government and is now leading strategic communication for an area in the provincial government, and the third one works for a small Victoria company as the sole HR person. The fact they have a full-time HR professional is amazing, and to hear what it’s like for her to be the only one driving all the HR work at her organization, was a big eye opener for students. Many students in the course wrote their panel reflections on the HR grad panel (the other panel was workplace leaders), because what was relevant for them in that moment was hearing from those graduates.”

Allison was recognized for her work with accessibility in 2024 and I asked about how she got here. “My father is a retired educational psychologist who worked in post secondary institutions. I remember dinner conversations about challenges students faced in those institutions, international students, new immigrants, Indigenous students, and at that time, we were also just starting to understand learning disabilities and my dad had to provide support for those students. So, I grew up understanding that you had to always consider what was going on for other people, and that the way you learned didn’t necessarily work for somebody else.” And her experience working in HR over the years has affirmed that everyone’s story is indeed a bit different, and you need to keep opening your mind so you can support them.

One example Allison shared was from her training and development course. “We teach students how to write training objectives.  For the mid-term, I chose what I thought was a simple topic for them to create training objectives for: making a bed. Most students talked about folding hospital corners and making sure pillows were fluffed, but one student said that you have to follow the instructions and bang the nails in until things are secure. And I realized, oh, make a bed. I share that story with the training & development students, because you can think you’re giving them crystal-clear instructions, and someone will tell you about going to Home Depot to get the lumber to make the bed.” In the end, Allison says, “I have 35 unique individuals in my class, and all of them learn in different ways. My job is to support them as much as I’m able and I have a professional obligation to keep learning about people and adapting. As soon as I stop doing that as an instructor, I will have passed my best-before date.” I asked Allison how she supports that diversity in the classroom. “It can’t just be once a year during SD. It has to be every day. When a student is struggling, you need to pause and really listen to why are they struggling – don’t assume. You’ve got to pay attention. If something doesn’t seem to be connecting, check in with the student and respect what they tell you and ask yourself what’s within your sphere of control to change.”

I also wondered how trying to support the diverse needs of students shows up in Allison’s assessments. “The assessments change all the time, sometimes just a tweak, but recently we made a massive change. About a third of our students were struggling with the assessments in HR Foundations, so we revised the structure and eliminated ambiguity where we could. We provide them with a template to complete, and every step of the template has a link to an example. While some people wonder if we are spoon-feeding, I don’t see it that way because we’ve seen students who were struggling succeed; students who might have failed before are now passing. The format of the assessments is rigid in some respects, but that rigidity helps them build good habits, and if we start them off with the best possible habits, then they have a solid foundation to lean on as they move forward.”

Allison has been doing a few new things with her teaching recently. Last fall, she piloted a new asynchronous online class. First, she told me that this particular course is her favourite to teach. “We coach students working in teams, and every semester without fail, seven of the nine teams hit it out of the ballpark. The eighth team does ok, but the ninth struggles. In the 2 two fully online pilot sections, there were seven slightly larger teams in each. Five did really well, one trundled along not too badly, and one struggled. I didn’t assume this pattern would be the same, but somehow that is how it turned out.” But overall, Allison said the asynchronous course went well. “While some content for this class works better in person than other content, if we can offer an asynchronous section of it once a year for students, I think that’s important, and it’s something that we can be proud of as our builds up our roster of high-quality asynchronous courses.”

Last year in one section of the new online course Allison piloted Bongo, a video assignments tool which integrates into D2L (note that we do not currently have a licence for this tool but are only investigating it with the support of a few faculty.) “Kristina Andrew knew that I had been considering a video final exam, and after participating in a Bongo demo, I wanted to try it in the pilot online training and development course for both the final exam and the team Training Project – to try to make the Training Project more engaging like it is in the in-person class classroom. I knew it would not be the same, but I wanted students to have the same sense of collaboration and learning from each other, in the online classroom, and Bongo seemed like a great solution.” Allison ended up with two sections of the online course, but because the Bongo pilot only allowed for one, Kristina introduced her to H5P as an alternate solution for the second section. “While Bongo is a video creation tool. H5P objects can create slides into which you can insert video. What I found fascinating is that the assignment in the H5P section has, in many ways, been more creative than in the Bongo section.”

But Allison also set up the final exam for the Bongo-pilot course using Bongo as well. “Students read a case incident, have two hours to practice, and their final submission is a three-minute video explaining their solution to the case incident.” Allison told me that if the final exam worked well (our interview was before the final exam), she would consider switching the final exam in all sections, online and in-person, to a video final exam.

For some additional context, Allison did give students a heads-up email about being a part of the Bongo and H5P pilots. “I told them about the pilot and warned them that no matter how well I’ve planned it, things are going to go wrong because it’s new technology. In addition, coordinating a team project in person is hard, and even more challenging in an asynchronous course with a heavy reliance on creating video. And I said, if this is not for you, the course will be in-person in the next term.” She also built in practice with the tools for both the team assignment and the final exam. A full final exam practice using the identical process to the actual final exam was included in both sections. And Allison’s impression of the pilot?  “I will be cautiously optimistic and say that the pilot has gone pretty well.”

Finally, I asked Allison what advice she might have for new faculty coming to teach at Camosun. “I would tell them to breathe – it will be okay. You will feel completely overwhelmed for at least a few weeks, and that’s normal. We are here for you, to get you through. I’m proud to say that in our department our goal is to give each new instructor as much support as we can: syllabi, Master D2L courses, to-do lists built right into D2L. And then we connect with them when their first assignments come in, when their first quizzes are completed, etc. If you’re overwhelmed and disoriented, that is normal, and it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you! There’s so much to learn when you start so let us help you. We’re here to support students, but we’re also here to support each other.”

Natasha has been one of my Centre for Excellence in Teaching and Learning (CETL) colleagues for the past four years and is our Education Developer for Indigenization, sharing “my Haida name is Sk’ing lúudas, which means Bow Wave and I’ve been in Indigenous education for over ten years.” Natasha is a certified B.C. teacher and completed her professional diploma for teaching at the University of Victoria (UVic) saying, “my pathway to Camosun was through my work in a local school district where I spent seven years teaching in Indigenous education during the COVID years.” During this time, she also completed her Master’s in Indigenous Governance also at UVic.” But when Natasha saw the job posting at Camosun, she thought maybe it was the next step for her. And in her role here, Natasha “supports faculty and others in their learning journey towards decolonizing and Indigenizing both professionally and personally.”

I asked Natasha if she could tell me what her work was like in the school district compared to her work at the college. “My role was similar in that I supported teachers and staff throughout the school and within the school district. But it was a little different because the focus was to meet with students who self-identified as Indigenous, support them academically, meet with families, work on lessons in collaboration with teachers, bring in guest speakers, etc. I have brought many similar aspects into my work at Camosun. Here, I enjoy collaborative projects, try to bring Elders into learning opportunities, and engage in experiential learning where we’re getting up and moving around all of which fits well with what we already do in CETL around active learning and relational practices. I also recognize that I’m not Coast Salish, which is why it’s important to bring Elder/Knowledge Keeper voices or resources or videos into our spaces so we can hear directly from lək̓ʷəŋən and W̱SÁNEĆ viewpoints.”

Natasha’s work in CETL runs from providing one-on-one support, through running short Indigenous learning opportunities and longer-term workshops, to supporting Indigenous learning opportunities run by others at the college. “We are supporting TELŦIN TŦE WILNEW: Understanding Indigenous Peoples (TTW), ŚW̱,ȻENEṈITEL: Doing Good Work Together (TTW2) (both run by Eyēʔ Sqȃ’lewen), and the KAIROS Blanket Exercise (run by Human Resources (HR)) which have all been very powerful experiential learning opportunities for people. The KAIROS Blanket Exercise is a three-hour session with a trained facilitator who leads participants through 500 years of colonization, with each participant taking on the role of Indigenous person and feeling and seeing the impacts of colonization over time. It started as a CCFA-funded opportunity but has been now taken up as a regular HR offering, demonstrating ally-ship across Camosun College.”

As for how she approaches working with people, Natasha says “my starting place is always to ask where someone is at and what they are interested in so we can explore how to expand from that position.” One of the initiatives Natasha has picked up to help people explore, is the Indigenous Education Community of Practice (CoP), which was initially led by Ruth Lyall. “The CoP has evolved over time and people have come and gone. Right now, in addition to general discussion, we are exploring W̱SÁNEĆ values, one in each session, to set the tone for our time together. For example, during one session we had an hour-long conversation about initiative, and what it means to us as educators. Thinking about these values is a way helping us reconnect with our humanness and the way that we want to be in the world.”

Natasha says the most important work she has been engaged with is co-facilitating the Working Together: Indigenizing your Curriculum workshop series with Charlotte Sheldrake, who specializes in curricular alignment, which is “an eight-month commitment for faculty. Charlotte and I facilitate four three-hour sessions with a group of instructors, where we talk about why they want to Indigenize their courses what their personal commitments are to it, and about how to do it. The nature of the program is interdisciplinary, and we learn from each other. It’s exciting because people from all over the college participate: from accounting or computer science or biology – anybody can Indigenize their course, from one small aspect of the course to a complete revision. As long as course learning outcomes stay the same, instructors can integrate new assessments, add a book club, or build relationality into the classroom and it’s amazing to see how instructors Indigenize in different ways.” Participants also select an Indigenous learning framework to work with for the program. “They could choose the Circle of Courage or the five R’s of Indigenous Pedagogy Research (Relationships, Respect, Relevance, Responsibility, Reciprocity) and then align the framework with their course learning outcomes.

Natasha also works with individual faculty members and department or program groups who have questions about Indigenizing their courses and programs. “In our Curriculog system at Camosun, course developers are asked how they have Indigenized their course or program. But they are also asked, in what ways are you making space or providing learning or teaching opportunities for Indigenizing which helps people think about the how. Developers might reach out to me, which is opportunity to have a discussion and be curious together.” Natasha also runs Sparkshops on Territorial Acknowledgements. “That’s been a big part of the puzzle for me at Camosun, and over time, my own understanding around Territorial Acknowledgements has changed and shifted.” In addition, Natasha notes the importance of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and its place in post secondary education. “One gap we’re currently exploring is how the Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act (DRIPA) affects us in education. This 2019 B.C. act is derived from the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP), and addresses anti-racism, using a distinctions-based approach where we start with the territories our feet are planted in (localization of knowledge and language) then go from there.” This work was highlighted as an action item by the Truth and Reconciliation Action Committee Phase 2.

As we moved into discussing UNDRIP, I wondered if Natasha could share a bit about her work with Camosun’s Anti-Racism and Decolonization Action Committee. “I’m very aware that I’m a person of privilege: I’m educated, middle class, female, white passing and I hope I can use my voice to support social justice and equity. In 2022, I was asked by Artemis Fire to co-facilitate the Anti-Racism and Decolonization Action Committee at Camosun which includes people from all areas of the college. We meet once a month bringing action items to the table and have written letters to leadership and raised awareness around various issues, including mitigating harm when it comes to faculty feedback. We also work to support the Director of Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion role in a variety of ways.”

I asked Natasha what she is working on now and what she might be planning for the future. “Last year, we held a movie event to watch the documentary Lii Michif Niiyanaan: We are Métis and Camosun faculty and students, as well as people from community, attended. It’s important to bring attention to the Métis and Inuit perspectives as well to First Nations perspectives, and to increase our understanding of other Indigenous peoples in what we now know is Canada.” Another project Natasha and CETL will be involved with is the development of a SENĆOŦEN language course, in collaboration with SENĆOŦEN speakers. During the spring, Natasha also runs an on-the-land learning series where people can learn more about these territories with each other. “These workshops have involved learning in Camas Gardens, visiting the Royal BC Museum, getting out to PKOLS, and taking the lək̓ʷəŋən spindle whorls tour downtown.” But Natasha knows that sometimes limits of time and capacity means some events need to be put aside. “Last year, we participated a sweat lodge with Elder Robert George of Cowichan Nation. I’d never done one before, and it was a wonderful experience. These learning opportunities mean a full day for faculty and Knowledge Keepers and take a lot of behind-the-scenes organization. It’s important to slow down and thoughtfully consider when/how/where to engage in these wholistic on-the-land learning opportunities.” Then Natasha told me what these opportunities meant to her: “We need to get back on the land and recognize that the land and the waters are our first teachers. Our ancestors learned by, over thousands of years, watching the seasons, watching trees grow, watching animals come and go. In our Indigenous ways, we’re taught to watch the landscape and to follow the lead of the environment, which is something we don’t really do today.”

I wondered if, in her four years so far at Camosun, if there have been some standout moments for Natasha. “My work on the Integrated Curriculum Council (ICC) has been interesting, as we explore the power of learning outcomes, recognize that our scope as educators is connected to those learning outcomes, and reimagine what education could look like. One recent change is that the Bachelor of Science in Nursing program now includes learning outcomes on anti-racist and positionality. Faculty in these programs need support, which is why the Camosun/UVIC BSN (Nursing) Curriculum and Evaluation Standing Committee (CESC) reached out to CETL for guidance. Together, we are co-creating a BSN Anti-Racism Faculty Development Project.  “We consider the power of learning outcomes and the words that we use to describe them; we need to consider from whose perspective the learning outcomes are being created. For example, are our learning outcomes inclusive of an Indigenous student’s understanding of the world? We need to ensure that we make space for Indigenous voices and knowledge to exist in their own right alongside western ways of knowing, being, and doing.” This can be difficult because sometimes it can feel like Indigenizing is another layer to add onto everything else faculty are having to do. “As people are feeling time constrained, we need to ask, what are those things we’re holding onto that we can let go of – for example, if activities or assessments are not relevant for students, or don’t build relationship within the classroom. It’s okay to keep evolving and changing and asking, what do our students need … how can we support students to be all that they can be?”

As we began to come to the end of our time together, I asked Natasha what kind of advice she had for faculty just starting out at Camosun. “I would encourage people to know what their rights are in terms of professional development time. The time we have through our collective agreement has nurtured my connection with my own community, to be able to go to Haida Gwaii, spend time with my mentors and stay connected to my culture. I would encourage new faculty to seek out and find people who you really connect with and just grow together. I also want to highlight CETL because we have so many amazing workshops and learning opportunities. The Instructional Skills Workshop (ISW), for example, is a wonderful way to increase your confidence in teaching and help you find new inspiration. And finally, connect with instructional designers in eLearning as you develop your courses – the whole team of instructional designers work hard behind the scenes to make your life easier!”

Natasha added that “the learning never stops and there are many amazing people here, and from all over, you can learn from, so keep an open mind and consider everything as part of your learning experience. Finally, Indigenizing, decolonizing, is about intentionally transforming the way we think and the way we do things, and it can be hard. Take time and take care of yourself but also push yourself into the learning zone as you engage in the hard work of decolonizing. Continue to ask, is there another way to do what we’re doing, are there things we can get rid of to make space for Indigenizing, and explore how different Indigenous values like the 5R’s can help us reimagine what education can look like as we move into the future.”

Steve is a faculty member and chair of Camosun’s Management & HR Leadership program. “I am a Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA) and have worked in hotels and hospitality for many years. While I liked my job, something was missing, and I was curious about what else was out there for me. Then, one of my CPA friends who also worked at Royal Roads University (RRU) asked if I had ever considered teaching. So, I started teaching online classes as a term faculty member at RRU and loved it. Eventually, I reached out to the accounting program chair at Camosun and asked if they were looking for instructors, but at the time, I was working during the day when they needed people. Then, in 2011, I quit my day job and called up the chair again, who said that they would love to have me on the team.”

Steve has taught several different courses over the years. “I’ve taught financial accounting course, three levels of managerial accounting, food and beverage cost controls, and strategy courses, which is what I’m teaching now in addition to my role as chair.” I asked him what he enjoyed most about teaching. “I like seeing the spark in people, and when students tell me they liked the way I ran the class or supported them to feel safe and engaged within the classroom. I also like seeing where the students go afterwards and when I see requests through LinkedIn for a reference. I love that I’ve helped meaningfully change someone’s life.”

I asked Steve what being the department chair was like for him. “Before I was chair, I was a program leader in Hospitality Management, working closely with students and their program and career planning. During that time, I had an excellent relationship with the hospitality chair, who was my mentor and coach. Then, the chair role in the MHRL program was posted during the pandemic. Some people view being a chair as a punishment or a rite of passage, but I don’t see it that way. As chair, you interact with term faculty members and are a point of contact for everyone in the department. I believe in servant leadership where I help the people around me.”

I asked Steve how he supports term and continuing faculty in his chair role. “Regarding term faculty, I remember what it’s like not to know how to turn on classroom projectors or what key gets you into your office. I wondered how we as a department could show term faculty the proper care when they start here and if we could formalize this process. One of our fantastic program leaders developed an orientation session. Even if it’s only one hour before term starts, it could be the most productive hour they spend before starting to teach. And part of what we want is to hear those term faculty say that this is a place they’d love to work at full time.”

As for Continuing faculty, Steve works to engage with faculty and support them to feel secure in their jobs. “I want to ensure they have the right tools and feel respected and engaged in their work. I schedule one-on-one time with each of my 16 faculty members every month, although sometimes people are too busy marking or on vacation or Scheduled Development. During this time, we talk about schedules, what’s happening in the classrooms, and solutions to issues like the number of academic integrity violations we see. I like to connect with people and understand their personal lives and how to support them when things don’t always go according to plan. Part of what I want to do is empathize – not necessarily solve their problems but just offer an empathetic ear. Kindness is appreciated, and I also try to be transparent. For example, I’ll ask them if there are any courses they don’t want to teach anymore or a course they would like to teach because one of the most vulnerable things an instructor can say is that they would like to teach a course someone else has been teaching for a long time. Then, I can try to support those requests. Sometimes, I know it will be a tough conversation because people can become attached to the courses they teach, but other times, an instructor will want to try something new. I’m also very aware that the chair role is a peer leadership role, and I always try to approach the job with humility, knowing that I work with a talented team.”

I appreciated how Steve builds community in his department and how he supports building relationships and community in his classrooms. “I like a loud classroom. For me, if you can hear a pin drop, that isn’t a good thing. When I can see relationships forming and ideas getting kicked around, that gets my heart going. I set my classes up in the spirit of team-based learning (TBL), organizing students into groups of five and ensuring teammates have room for discussion with each other. I also consider students’ attention span, so I only talk for 15 minutes before having them do something else. For example, after I’ve talked, I’ll pose a larger topic to the class for discussion. They then must agree on an answer as a team and share their conclusions with the larger class. The door is open for other groups to agree or disagree. I’ve always said during the course you’re allowed to change your mind if you have a good reason to – we are not working in absolutes.”

Steve splits assessments between teamwork and individual work. “For individual work, there are reflective pieces and engagement assessments where students interact with other students. When it comes to group projects, I’ll explain that working as part of a team means doing things equitably, not equally, that I’ve been part of some wonderful teams, but I’ve been part of some disasters, and that the same thing will apply in whatever job they land. Along the way, I’ll ask them to consider their strengths and skills and think about how they can use and develop these skills. Then we discuss what lessons we learn if a team crashes and burns – what could have been done differently? And what each student’s responsibility is. Remember that leadership isn’t limited to only one person. Leadership is a collective responsibility.”

During our conversation about teamwork, Steve mentioned that his students work with business entrepreneurs to present suggestions and recommendations for those businesses. I was curious to learn more about how this worked in his course. “I used to ask students to pick a business for us to analyze, such as West Air Canada, Starbucks, Apple, Visa, etc. But last term, I decided to pick a couple of local businesses. I picked a local yoga studio and a local brewery but advised students that to come up with recommendations, they had to understand the businesses and their owners. This time, we ran the presentations as a seminar. I sat on the side, and one part of the assessment was to show that they understood the theory behind their recommendations. This first time around, I didn’t invite the entrepreneurs back for the final presentations, but I may do that in the future.”

Steve is never content with his teaching but continually pushes himself as a teacher. “I realized I wouldn’t be any good at teaching if I didn’t invest the time to improve my practice. I feel sharpest when I study. After I completed the Camosun/SFU Masters Program, one of my professors encouraged me to complete a doctorate. I study for the love and curiosity of it. After analyzing different programs, I decided on Western University’s Doctor of Education program. It’s all online and largely asynchronous, and you could focus on a social problem you want to solve. Steve was accepted into the program in 2021 and began a new learning journey. “The program’s point is to reflect on your ideals and ask yourself if you are living them. I started thinking about things I like doing, like volunteering at Our Place, where you work with less fortunate people, which I found tied into my studies as I read and changed perspectives. Ultimately, you have to understand the problem you are trying to solve, so while I wanted to write about the BBA program for my coursework, my professors asked, what’s the problem you’re trying to solve?” Steve realized that the BBA program was not the problem he wanted to write about and had to let that go. “That was hard, and I wondered what to do. Then, in one course, I started to explore faculty engagement and thought there was something there to start with.” So, Steve tucked away bits and pieces that struck him in each class. He didn’t know how to put them together but knew they would eventually play a part.

“Along the way, I started thinking about collegiality, the alignment of collegiality with engagement, and how groups rally as a team. Then we explored different change management frameworks, and finally, through that curiosity and exploration, I found a place to land for my dissertation: supporting people through collegiality and engagement and providing opportunities for whoever wants to be a part of them.” This reminded Steve of the PhD dissertation written by Martha McAlister in CETL, so he chatted with Martha and other people he held in high regard to help him flesh out his ideas. “I realized that if people can find meaning and purpose in their actions, they’ll be more engaged around it.” After successfully defending his dissertation (Stimulating Faculty Participation in Supporting and Developing Change Initiatives), Steve thought he should do something with it. “I started organizing my thoughts around grassroots leadership, collegiality, the idea that we’re not helpless, and I remembered Martha saying, ‘go with the power of yes,’ and ‘if you have two people who agree with you, your movement will start with those two people.’ I floated my ideas at a department meeting, explaining that I thought we needed to do more work with the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and the principles for responsible management in our classrooms, and several faculty members agreed. And here we are.”

As we ended an incredible conversation, I asked Steve for his advice for new faculty coming to teach at Camosun. “I’ve learned that there’s no shame in asking for help. When I started, I had an awesome chair, and she said, ‘You know the great difference between this job and other jobs? When you have a terrible day here or teach a class that goes wrong, you don’t have to relive it every day.’ Sometimes, a class will fall flat, but what did you learn from that? What can you do differently tomorrow? And if a faculty member thinks they messed up, I say, things happen – let’s talk about how to keep that from happening again and learn from it. Sometimes just creating these opportunities to share makes all the difference, especially for people who may not know where to seek help.”